"You never loved me. You've thought it fun to be in love with me, that's all."
-Nora, A Doll's House (p. 1301)
In A Doll's House, Nora wants more from her relationship with Torvald. She is uns
atisfied with her marriage, but when Dr. Rank professes his love for her later on in the novel, she denies him, stating: "...there are some people that one loves most and other people that one would almost prefer being with."Would she really prefer being with Dr. Rank, or is this an easy way of letting him down? Could Dr. Rank ever satisfy her?
Could any man during this age truly satisfy a woman like Nora?
Please use quotes liberally, and references to other novels are welcome.
~Juice-ra and Diagnus~
14 comments:
Personally, I disagree entirely with Nora's statement. It is indicative of her flawed psyche at the time that she does not realize that the person she loves most IS the one she would prefer being with - she is still fixated on the realization that a husband has to provide security above love. She might be able to love Dr. Rank, but not at this point in the novel.
Answering your question, I believe she does not truly prefer being with him. As I was reading the play, it seemed to me from the beginning of the scene as if Nora is trying to con Dr. Rank into leaving her his (admittedly scant) inheritance.
Perhaps I am biased because I am male, but it seems to me as if Nora needs some time alone to figure out what she really wants. Yes, Torvald was no good for her, but at the end of the play, she essentially told him only a husband that would let her die could have satisfied her. That seems irrational to me, as the will to live is one of the strongest compulsions of the id. She may eventually find someone she loves and who satisfies her, but she must first realize that her life is not a story in a book (haha, a pun) and that there are no PERFECT people. No man she finds will satisfy her perfectly in every aspect. Marriage is about compromise - each partner sacrifices a little in order to satisfy the other.
I have to disagree with David. Nora does not love Helmer. It is apparent that she cares for him, but she is by no means in love with him. She seizes all opportunities to get away from him. She uses Christmas decorations as a way to lock herself up at night and refrain from entertaining him. It is apparent from the first words in the play that Nora is thirsting for much more in her relationship with Helmer. Perhaps it is not only her male-female relationships that lack in depth, but also her female-female relationships. Nora is so unhappy with every aspect of her own being that it makes it hard for her to interact normally with others. The old phrase "you can't love someone who doesn't love themselves" is extremely pertinent in Nora's relationships with those around her. She must find an internal comfort with herself and her own life before she can even consider loving another person, whoever that person may be. Also, I disagree with David's assertion that Nora needs to realize that her life is not a story in a book, and that she needs to "lower her standards" (for lack of a better phrase). Nora was merely playing along with Helmer's sick control-freak game of pet names and skewed respect. Helmer treated Nora as if she were a fictional character, so she responded to him in the most logical sense-as if her life were a story. It was not so much that Nora was looking for a PERFECT spouse, but more that she was looking for a spouse that met her emotional and physical needs and saw her as an equal rather than as a pretty play thing.
Obviously, love is not completely impossible to find in this time period. We see Mrs. Linde and Krogstad begin a relationship and we even see Dr. Rank confess his love for Nora. However, I feel that Nora, during the course of the play, is not willing to hold on to a relationship because of the way that she has been treated in her marriage and by her father, which therefore compels her to reject Rank's confession of love. Nora is aware of the fact that Torvold treats her like a "doll-wife" (1758) throughout the whole play, but she forces herself to play along so that society would not find her to be disobedient or unfaithful to her husband. She admits at the end of the play that she followed along with Torvold's demands because "that's the way you wanted it" and because "I pretended to [comply]" (1758). Even at the beginning of the play Nora curses Torvold in front of Rank and Mrs. Linde saying, "I have such a huge desire to say- to hell and be damned!" (1724). This shows that Nora, from the initial lie about the macaroons to her leaving Torvold at the play's conclusion, is completely aware of her discontent and that she merely just wants to be without love for a while. Therefore, it's not a matter of whether or not a man can satisfy Nora, but whether or not Nora can resolve her internal problems and be satisfied in a relationship.
I personally do not think that Nora wants to be with either Torvald or Dr. Rank at this point in her life. What she values the most right now is becomeing her own person. While it is probably that she truly loves Torvald, it is essential for her to leave him in order to find herself and true happiness. As for Dr. Rank, I think she loves the idea that is Dr. Rank. She likes the idea that there are men out there who care about what she has to say and will connect with her on an intellectual level. In the quote where she is speaking with Dr. Rank, I think that what she is trying to say is that she loves Torvald and wishes he was better for her than he is now, and that she wishes Torvald would become like Dr. Rank and care about what she has to say and share his problems with him.
Nora does not wish to be with Dr. Rank, nor has she ever desired a relationship with him. Yes, she may find traits of his admirable and desirable in a man, such as his acknowledgment of her beauty and intelligence, and furthermore Dr. Rank would most likely satisfy Nora. But all of this is irrelevant because it is Helmer with whom Nora is ultimately struggling with. I also hold the belief that Nora does actually love Helmer. She wishes that she could stay with him and the children and learn to work through their communication and relationship issues. Nora indicates her love for Helmer by expressing to him that, "It is true. I have loved you above everything else in the world" (72). She also possesses a trait of love and significant care for Helmer by insisting that he, "Shall not suffer for my [Nora's] sake" (72). From wishing that he will not "suffer" from her lack of the ability to stay with him shows that Nora still holds great admiration for her husband. But Nora is unable and unfit to be in any relationship during this time in her life. She commits her life after Helmer and the children to fully understanding herself and her desires. Thus, not making a man incapable of satisfying Nora’s standards, but instead Nora being temporarily inept of satisfying herself in any relationship.
Nora would not prefer being married to Dr. Rank, but she would rather and is more fit to be with him in an emotional sense. Torvald does not understand Nora, but she had been in love with him initially. Nora has never felt a physical attraction or love with Dr. Rank but he most likely could satisfy her need for a friend or companion. When she tells him there are "other people that one would almost prefer being with" she really is admitting to him that she appreciates the way her understands her intellect and the things she needs from her spouse. As for the characters in the book, Dr. Rank would be best suited emotionally and intellectually for Nora, but she is stuck with Torvald because he can offer her security. Dr. Rank could not fully satisfy Nora because on some level, I think Nora enjoys the attention she gets from Torvald, even if it's somewhat condescending - his use of nicknames such as squirrel and skylark - and she goes along with it because that is what has been projected as normal for her. Nora cannot be satisfied with anyone else at this point in her life though, because she is not truely satisfied with herself and her position in life. In time, when Nora figures out what it is that she wants, then she will be able to give herself entirely to a relationship and let herself be satisfied with someone else.
Most of you seem to think that Nora must "find herself" before she finds sufficient love from others. Do you think that this was the case with Mrs. Linde? Compare and contrast Mrs. Linde's relationship with Krogstad to Nora's relationship with Helmer.
~Juice-ra and Diagnus
I believe Mrs. Linde was so engrained within the society during the time that she did not need to "find herself." She had located her own identity through the hard work of taking care of her family, an opportunity Nora did not have and may have been seeking when she left Torvald. Mrs. Linde was able to fall in love and truly care for Krogstad because she knew who she was, what she wanted, and what her responsibilities were; thus she knew the limits of her person and was able to find someone that complimented these obstructions. Nora however knew very little of her self identity and could not be aware of what she wanted when she married Torvald. It was only until a conflict of interest (the loan) did Nora begin to understand herself as she finally had realize her strengths and weaknesses. This realization would provide a basis for the ugly truth that she did not know her husband at all nor did she know what she wanted with her new, redefined character.
Ms. Linde and Nora were both compelled by the societal views of the time period to seek men to marry. Both went for the man with money, favoring a stable position in life rather than actual love. Nora really didn't have anyone else to choose between, but Mrs. Linde chose her former husband over Krogstad only so she could provide for her family.
As to whether or not the two women need to find themselves in order to find love, another question to ask is 'Can they find themselves?' It seems society is the cause for the systematic repression of the women's independence, and society continually compels them to accept these conditions in order to find "love." The society's definition of love in this time is much different than our perception of love. This society sees a mutual attraction due to circumstance to be love. Nora sees past this and develops a new definition of love, most likely skewed by a drastic need for independence. I figure that if independence is what Nora truly wants, the basic tenet that love is shared between two people causes one to be dependent on the other, even if it is only for affection. This fact coupled with the fact that society almost demands that husbands be in control of their wives and anything else is taboo, it's nearly impossible for a man like that to exist in her society. This man would have to be completely devoid of societal values and would want a nearly negligent relationship with her in order to maintain the true independence she needs.
The major difference between the relationship between Mrs. Linde/Krogstad and Helmer/Nora is the amount of love(or lack thereof) shared between them. Although they had a falling out, Mrs. Linde and Krogstad had true love. They really cared for each other, as shown by their reunion years later. On the other hand, Nora and Helmers relationship was based entirely on lies and deceit. Their dedication to each other was shallow, and they did not truly love each other the way Linde and Krogstad did.
Diana and Yousra - wonderful opening quote; I particularly liked pondering over the question of whether or not any man could possibly satisfy Nora.
David, I believe you presented a valid viewpoint although I don't really agree with you.
Lizzie - I agree with our distinction between love and caring - also the fact that you can't love someone who doesn't love himself/herself
Gary - good point that love is achievable by using Krogstad and Mrs. Linde as an example. I would tend to agree with ou that Nora has been discontent all along.
Emily, good point about Nora most of all just wanting to become her own person. She is definitely looking for a soul mate on an equal playing field.
Grace, you made a strong argument for Nora actually loving Trovald and wishing she could have the ideal lifestyle. Your supporting quotes really helped your argument.
Yousra - you had an effective re-direct.
Mary, good point about the conflict allowing Nora to begin to understand herself.
Hunter, I like how you brought in society's perception of love; this is a very important factor.
Nora has been sheltered all her life under two different men. She had initially grown up under the care of her father. He had given her everything until she married Torvald, who became her new caretaker. She has always been cared for and protected, and has consequently never seen hardship. Inversely, Mrs. Linde has never led the carefree lifestyle that Nora has. Instead of being dependent on others, she has always provided for her family. She has faced hardship like Nora could not understand.
Nora and Mrs. Linde's relationships can be understood when one takes the their maturity into account, which directly varies with the difficulty of their lives. Nora, who has only ever been sheltered and given everything she needed, has blissfully conformed to society's expectation of her to be a good wife and mother without question up to the point in her life that the novel concerns. Nora went into a relationship with Torvald chiefly out of conformity and thought it to be love. Eventually, she became frustrated with her subservience to her husband and decided to go into the world for herself.
The more sophisticated and mature Mrs. Linde had consciously abandoned prospects of love to form a relationship with Krogstad because she knew she could be provided for that way. If she had been presented with the opportunity to marry Torvald, she would have undoubtedly pursued it. He got his act right and that's what she like.
In order for Nora to ever be capable of having a genuine relationship with any man, she needs to change her perception of what her relationship should be like, and just let a real one develop. However, her skewed perceptions of what reality should be like cause her to destroy any chance of a relationship she had beacuse she tries so hard to maintain ideas and feelings that do not exist anywhere beyond the spectrum of her imagination. It could be that there is a man capable of satisfying her needs, but it is neither Rank nor Torvald, because she knows both all too well. In order for Nora to have a true relationship, she needs to come to terms with herself and seperate herself from the desires to live life one way that are preventing her from living a real life.
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